Your email address:

Powered by FeedBlitz

Twitter Updates

    follow me on Twitter

    « Knight Ridder's Cojones | Main | Another Possible Condi Contortion »

    December 07, 2005


    Andrew Leyden

    "It depends what your definition of "is" is."

    I mean, I thought we were done with that sort of crap....


    "those obligations extend to U.S. personnel wherever they are, whether they are in the United States or outside of the United States"

    but doesn't Rice's inclusion of this mean that the US is interpreting CAT to apply to treatment of foreigners abroad? Or am I missing something?

    Eric Umansky

    Her comments speak to geography; what the Justice Dept. has previously issued an opinion on is based on nationality. In other words, ask Rice whether the CIA can screw with foreigner being held overseas and I suspect a straight answer will not be forthcoming.

    Mark Gilbert

    Rice's sentence structure is a bit convoluted, but the short version is, "CAT obligations apply to US Personnel outside the US."

    Eric, contrary to your comment above, don't her words speak to nationality ("US personnel")? She is clearly saying that the CIA (who are US personnel) are bound by the CAT when operating overseas.

    The Post article plays this as a change in administration policy, but I'm guessing she was just responding to pressure, from Europeans and from the press, to say something reassuring. Rice and the administration as a whole are still very squirrelly on the whole issue.

    Tom Maguire

    She is clearly saying that the CIA (who are US personnel) are bound by the CAT when operating overseas.

    Well, yes - but if I am following this, the CAT does not impose any obligations on US personnel with respect to their treatment of non-US citizens abroad.

    Again, if I am getting this, US personnel cannot torture US citizens anywhere, and cannot torture aliens in territory under US control.

    However, US personnel operating abroad can do what they want to non-US citizens.

    Patrick (G)

    The known loopholes:
    1. The U.S. can have foreign governments do the torturing for us (e.g. Syria).
    2. The U.S. can have contractors do the torturing for us (e.g. CACI at Abu Ghraib).
    3. Per Rumsfeld, if U.S. military officers witness Torture, they have a responsibility to report it, for intelligence purposes presumably, but not to actually stop it as illegal behavior.


    My quick and dirty understanding of their position - when the U.S. ratified the CAT, the U.S. interpreted it to be no broader than the prohibitions of the 8th Amendment's prohibition on cruel or unusual punishment. The 8th Amendment only covers actions in the U.S., or actions against U.S. citizens outside the U.S. So Bush and cronies can sanction torture of non-US citizens outside the U.S. and still claim they are following the CAT.

    George E. Lowe

    Hi, Andrew Sullivan TODAY wants/demands the Congress to pass the McCain "ANTI-TORTURE" Amendment without any exceptions. He especially wants NOT to exclude the high-ranking Americans who signed the TORTURE MEMOS, beginning in early 2002. Every member of the BLOGOSPHERE & the "independent" MSM journalists MUST demand the WHITE HOUSE release ALL of these TORTURE MEMOS--so the healing of our nation can begin. These White House memos exist. Why not ask Scott McClellan about them [date & number] & see what his response is? Enraged in Stuart, FL. George E. Lowe


    My interpretation of Condoleeza Rice's carefully parsed words is that the US will outsource 100% of the torture to Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. Note how she defended "extraordinary rendition" - kidnapping "suspects" and transporting them to a convenient torture center for "harsh" interrogation. Fafblog's satirical comments come perilously close to the truth:

    "RICE: I'd also like to point out that whenever we send a prisoner to a country that routinely tortures prisoners, that country promises us NOT to torture them.
    Fafblog: And then they get tortured anyway!
    RICE: Yes, they do! It's very strange."


    She could say "We don't and never will torture, nor will we permit or condone torture by others for any reason, at any time or in any place". The fact that she uses more than the 25 or so words that are necessary to provide complete reassurance is itself grounds for suspicion. The hole gets deeper and she's still digging.


    Now would be a very good time for people in this discussion to ponder the distinction between CIA agents and CIA officers.

    global yokel

    My suspicion is that Rice, Gonzales, Cheney and the other thugs are out there preaching the virtues of torture not because they actually believe it to be an effective interrogation technique, but because they fear that they might someday have a date in The Hague in front of a tribunal. They are trying to create an atmosphere wherein they won't be prosecuted and judged severely when the Bush cabal leaves office in '08.


    Everyone seems to be missing two big weasels in Rice's so-called assurances that the US does not torture. In trying to assure the Europeans that they have it all wrong, she said that "US personnel" do not torture. In a second statement a day later, meant to sound even more restrictive, she stated that "US employees" do not torture. Unfortunately neither of those statements cover the civilian para-military contractors that perform much of the administration's security work in Iraq and around the world. The people who work for these contractors are neither US government personnel nor US [government] employees. They are private citizens working for private companies.

    At the beginning of the Iraq war the Bush administration encouraged Special Forces personnel to "retire" from the military and join private security firms doing work for the US in Iraq in places like Abu Graib. The Bush administration also made several statements that civilian contractors who committed crimes in Iraq would not be prosecuted by the US since the crimes would not have been committed on US soil.

    It seems clear to me that a) at the beginning of the Iraq war the Bush administration set up para-military units, neither military nor CIA, that do not have any of the constraints of military rules or US law, and b)the Bush administration is using weasel words that make it sound as if it is broadly prohibiting torture, while specifically not including these civilian para-military units in their denials.

    The ugly truth may very well be that the Bush administration has set up its own international para-military torture squads beyond reach of US law and Congressional oversight.

    Robert Maxwell

    I can't remember seeing or hearing any comment from Geo,Bush senior on this subject.After all,who better to direct some of the actors in this'play'than Dad who was not only a C.I.A. agent, but the head of that little club.Considering Geo. J.R.'s political experience,or lack thereof(half term at Texas governor),such wide reaching plans rarely come from such challenged minds.

    Robert Maxwell

    I can't remember seeing or hearing any comment from Geo,Bush senior on this subject.After all,who better to direct some of the actors in this'play'than Dad who was not only a C.I.A. agent, but the head of that little club.Considering Geo. J.R.'s political experience,or lack thereof(half term at Texas governor),such wide reaching plans rarely come from such challenged minds.


    Wonderful and informative web site.I used information from that site its great.

    Gigig Barabanovu

    Thanks for a good site with a very good info. I searched the whole web on this information in find your site! Good work

    Anna Replica

    Hey! This is really your Work?! Cool! I never earlier did not see sites like this! Tnx!

    Gigib Barabanovz

    Wonderful well this reading. More Mr Sparkle send greeting at Japan. LOL

    Antonio Chelobitos

    Thanks for taking the time and effort in creating this content to share your knowledge with all of us.

    flirting tips

    Well how do they classify inhumane things? What is considered humane and what isn't? Is there some sort of list somewhere or something?


    Jeżeli szukasz niedrogiej i odpowiedzialnej firmy zajmującej się hostingiem to posiadam dla Ciebie rewelacyjną informacje. Tylko teraz zaistniał zawodowy i niedrogi serwer dla ludzi, którzy cenią sobie rzetelność i szybkość działania. Ale nawiążmy do tego czym jest hosting. To usługa polegająca na udzielaniu przez dostawców Netu miejsca na swoich serwerach dla różnych usług np. serwisy WWW, konta pocztowe, radia internetowe itp. Zazwyczaj napotykany jest hosting odpłatny, w którym wartość należności miesięcznej zależy od kilku składników. Jesteśmy kompetentną firmą, dla której liczy się nadrzędnie zadowolenie interesanta. Dajemy w ofercie hosting na najlepszym poziomie, po najmniejszej możliwej cenie. Przekonaj się sam i sprawdź naszą jakość! Zapraszamy na portal. Nie mamy na celu Ci wpajać, iż dostaniesz na własność od nas darmowe usługi hosting. Natomiast mamy możliwość zagwarantować Ci jedną rzecz. Nasze usługi hosting są najprawdopodobniej najtańszymi domenami, które możesz odnaleźć w Internecie. Jednak pomimo małych ilości wydatków za usługi hosting, dajemynajwyższą możliwą jakość naszych domen. Nie możesz uwierzyć? Przekonaj się Jeśli tak to już teraz wejdź na naszą stronę internetową i nabierz przekonania o przwdzie tego wpisu Nasze usługi hosting oferują najwyższą jakość w najniższej cenie. Nie będziesz zmuszony przeznaczać wielkich pieniędzy za usługi hosting. Jeśli wejdziesz pierwszy raz na naszą stronę, odpowiemy Ci na wszystkie pytania. W naszym asortymencie znajdziesz wiele opłacalnych upustów dla świeżych gości. Jeżeli natomiast jesteś naszym wiernym gościem, oczekuj, iż będziesz miał możliwość skorzystać z niecodziennych okazji. Zobacz sam i zajrzyj koniecznie. Zauważysz ile jesteś w stanie zachować pieniędzy w portfeluz nami.


    lokale uzytkowe bydgoszcz
    One of the largest developers Certitude Poznan SA is launching a huge complex of houses - investment Lubczykowa A-one II is to have 1,200 units. Finishing of the prime broadway construction is planned to save mid 2012
    "Lubczykowa Lid II 'uprising in the north of Poznan on the hill of the after all is said name. The investment houses when one pleases be built with an space of ??162 dweeb meters to which they belonged parcels ranging in greatness from 230 to 350 sq m. All will be struck by garden, terrace on the gold medal floor block of ??10 conform to meters, and a increase garage. Prices of characteristic houses are formed in the variety from 510 to 000 zl 620 000 zl and are dependent on the place, dole out size and degree of equipment. In the basic manoeuvre of the project created 24 units of protection (single-family structure in the quad) and a kind of "twin".
    Designers predicted on the soil crush houses a bathroom, laundry and drying cubicle quarters, and bent over flues that stand for for your own decor. On the commencement overwhelm are three bedrooms are located together with a burly bathroom. Houses are made of ceramic bricks and lime, using ‚lan thrifty windows readily obtainable to residents is also to be installed to instal a fireplace with a unstintingly jacket integrated with central heating. In addendum, the buildings will have innovative architectural and utility, including consecration of principal vacuum or lead to the discharge of dirty laundry on the first bottom to the laundry.


    Soap odplamiajace - perception 5 liters

    Running soap with bile effectively removes even the most stubborn stains, whose groundwork is a plump, starch and protein. It contains a concentrate of bovine bile of ecological conditions, the effectual washing substances with coconut grease and palm oil from seeds and vegetable soft soap.

    • Does not contain preservatives , bleaches, enzymes and unnatural fragrances
    • Certified dermatological
    • Complies with the program of the German The public for Creature Barrier
    • Let up on rob including re-filling system

    How to utter:

    Soap spread directly on the blot, leave on a moment to perform, then rinse.

    Some word anent the products stamp Ulrich:

    Firstalergia kurz is a troop that has the only fully organic line of washing, cleaning and dolour, which does not examination on animals in accordance with the program of the German League as the Sanctuary of Animals. Most products have adorn come of "vegan".

    Flash Ulrich natürlich the products without enzymes - both genetically manipulated and those that climb from genetically manipulated bacteria. Lack of enzymes in such products (unfortunately) yet is not odd, as shown in the newspaper promulgate "Schrot & Korn," No. 7 / 2005.

    Third Natürlich Ulrich is the best products owing infants, in a family way women and people pain from allergies to naurodermitis. Washing liquefied, washing limpid exchange for delicate fabrics, and Soap odplamiajace are skin-friendly pH value. Dermatologiczno-allergy tests conducted on "Dermatest GmbH (D-48143 Münster)"

    4th Ulrich natürlich products are ecologically tested (ÖKO TEST) through the Institute terribly rigorous "Verband Östereichischer Umweltberatungsstellen" in Austria and are recommended during UMWELTBERATUNG in Austria.

    The comments to this entry are closed.